Posted by: soniamain | April 25, 2008

Christian language

A question for people! Why is it that so often evangelical speak comes across as being so patronising, judgemental, and as if they know it all?. I have a had a few encounters recently of this, unfortunatly it has a really negative effect on me- my main response is to tell them to F*** off- very un christian! it then leads me to  question do I have the same believes as you, it seems we are coming from such very different places. Why is this?, maybe it’s just me and I have lot of repenting to do!! :)

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Responses

a sensitive soul is the evangelical
uncomfortable
betwixt and between

what’s happened to the world -
Gods laws are ignored!
upset is the evangelical

yet what friendship he offers in times of great loss
only a dog can compete with the devoted care of
the thoughtful evangelical

on some things he’s right,
on some things he’s wrong, no matter -
contention he’s used to

for sticking his neck out
he gets plenty of flack
the unflinching evangelical

yet for speaking his mind,
I’ll give him full due
imagine our unchallenged ride into hedonism

By: subo on April 25, 2008
at 3:10 pm

where has that come from Su, did you write it?

By: soniamain on April 25, 2008
at 4:58 pm

Sonia, that post is the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time - just what the doctor ordered after a hectic planning and preparation week for my placement. I know exactly what you mean though. And I know exactly what Su was referring to in her poetic response. I don’t actually come from an evangelical background myself, but have been involved in a lot of ecumenical stuff in the past. Whilst the jargon often gets right up my nose, I think it is often something for people to hide behind, saves them thinking too much. The best one, and I think I’ve mentioned this one on ASBO at some point, was when my friend was doing a ‘women’s outreach’ evening. She sent a text out to every Christian she knew asking for prayer support for the event “because I’ve got 8 unsaved women coming”. My Phil’s response was “tell her to save one for me!” It’s that kind of smug carry on that offends me. But the woman involved is a most loyal, loving and wonderful friend, so I wouldn’t hold it against her. She’d just caught that turn of phrase from her church friends.

By: Carole on April 25, 2008
at 6:29 pm

Thanks Carole your friend’s text made me laugh a lot!. Hope your new placement is going well.

By: soniamain on April 25, 2008
at 7:42 pm

Oh gosh I do hate b******t in any form, and it abounds in evangelicalism. But I think to some extent Carole is right, it can be a sort of defence mechanism. Evangelical jargon stands out to us because it is often sooooo out of tune with the prevailing culture. But every group or tribe has its language and customs… its in jokes, its ‘cultural capital’ to borrow a phrase. People want to be accepted so they fall in with the local traditions. What I really have a problem with is not so much the language but the attitude which sometimes accompanies it, the very one which causes Sonia to question if she belongs to the same belief system - because it is about being exclusive, a kind of club that is only open to people who can say ‘washed in the blood’ without any sense of discomfort.

By: Clare on April 25, 2008
at 8:35 pm

And on this theme I feel I should share with you my friend Sam’s usual parting shot, delivered with tongue firmly in cheek, which always makes me smile:
“See you this side of glory, God willing!”

By: Clare on April 25, 2008
at 8:37 pm

Was just discussing this with Iain, he said someone should come up with a “speaking jellical phrase book”!. He suggests he and Jon could have fun 1 evening creating it!.

Carole and Clare you right, it is about fitting in with the culture- i guess in some ways it is no different to the education or social services jargon I hear at work- but for some reason evangelical speak winds me up far more than any other!.

By: soniamain on April 25, 2008
at 9:00 pm

Sonia, spot on. Education is the worst. Ultimately you find yourself slipping into it despite your best efforts. When I filled in the application form for this course, I read back over my personal statement and found the phrase ‘remove barriers to learning’. I couldn’t do it, it had to come out. I once had the most interesting experience of being a secondary school governor on the panel to recruit a headteacher (may I stress, being a governor was actually as boring as f**k, being on the recruitment panel was interesting!) We had about a dozen applicants and it was amazing reading the personal statements. If I had a pound for every time I saw “I really do believe that every child matters”, “personalised learning” and indeed, “remove barriers to learning” I would be a rich woman.

The funniest memory was when we had it down to the final two at interview. I was given the role of delivering the killer question which was supposed to bring out the passion of the applicants for the post; “Tell me, what ‘excites’ you about being the headteacher of Bogstandard Comp?”. I desperately wanted to deliver it breathily, very much in the style of Fenella Fielding in Carry on Screaming. I think I carried it off resonably OK but there was definitely a bit of that in there. Well I was concentrating far too much on not laughing at the time to suppress it entirely…

By: Carole on April 26, 2008
at 1:26 pm

I like your reflections on being a governor!- I’m chair of governors at my children’s very small primary. Your so right about the trite phrases that come out in application forms!- one recently i have seen is “i want to offer the best start in life to every child” - the vicar pointed out what a ridiculous statement that was and impossible to meet!.

By: soniamain on April 26, 2008
at 1:36 pm

I went to a talk on Christianity and Islam a few years back at good ole Spring Harvest. It was a double header with Pete Greig, who I like a lot, and some Nigerian chappy whose name escapes me. Jonathan summink or other, I think. Being of a Pentecostal persuasion he did a lot of the “halleluia, Praise de lawd” stuff and encouraged us to chorus, “Halleluia” whenever he said “Praise de Lawd” and vice versa. He seemed to do this at the end of every other sentence. Every time I heard the largely white, middle class, farty, evangelical audience desperately trying to lose their starchiness and be natural with this I wanted to laugh out loud - though that may well have been an ‘infilling of the Spirit’ (oops, another jargon phrase!)

By: Carole on April 26, 2008
at 1:37 pm

Well if we can veer off language and into behaviour for a moment I will share with you my first ever experience of Spring Harvest which was largely responsible for me forming the opinion that all evangelicals are slightly bonkers. We arrived in Minehead after a long and trying drive (Jon was recovering from a nervous breakdown and having panic attacks all the way from Bath) and headed for the nearest big tent to try and find someone from the leadership team. Creeping in at the back of the packed venue I was astonished to see a man on the platform shouting and banging a big stick. He proceeded to explain that he took his stick everywhere with him because God had told him to. God had given him the stick to show he was a leader, but a humble leader. (what are you doing on the platform in front of all these people then?) Except he didn’t take it when he went to the supermarket (can’t remember why but I suspect he didn’t want to look silly without the protection of other stick carrying weirdos). wondering if someone had slipped me some lsd when I wasn’t looking I checked out the other punters. there were a sizeable number near the front with their own big sticks, and they all seemed very excited about the stick banging idea. I had a minor freakout and left the tent at this point, so possibly there was some revelatory denouement which would have made sense of it all…but I doubt it. We endured the weekend working in one of the youth venues and left with every intention of avoiding the place for the rest of our lives.

By: Clare on April 26, 2008
at 7:47 pm

It does seem to be almost be a very secret code, in both language and behavior. What really puzzles me is that I thought christians were suppose to encourage “non-christians” to get to know God and become a christian- but doesn’t this behavior and language just put people off?- I know it puts me off!

By: soniamain on April 26, 2008
at 8:02 pm

oh la la, your stick memories reminded me of a ‘holy stick’ experience, Tim and I had just moved to Bristol, and were keen to check out the local hot churches, first on the list was a off shoot of a big city church meeting just round the corner from out flat. we entered the tiny concrete room to find it crowded with men who had all apparently got the gift of the stick or what they were calling the beat of the spirit, involving arrhythmically banging them in un-unison. I should add Tim is a professional drummer, so he wasn’t over impressed at the start, two hours later we were desperately wondering what the pattern to the service was - i.e., how long does this go on for?, we never found out as a desire to escape overtook, I’d not have give them two hours these days.

what struck me then, as being theologically off beat, was the way everyone was lost in their own little space, caught up in their own trip and unable to show any sensitivity to each other, again, I shall never know if this was the case or if there lay hidden a deep bond of love and communion

By: su on April 26, 2008
at 11:08 pm

Hilarious but fab stories. Actually that’s what I love about being a Christian - so many of us are complete nutters! It’s a laugh a minute! BTW I include myself in the Glorious Order of Nutters Extraordinary (GONE for short!). When I first took the plunge and decided to immerse myself in church life, with an emphasis on ecumenical activity, I found myself the only rep from my church at a small inter-church prayer meeting. It was presided over by some lovely mates from a local free church and the venue was provided by the Anglicans. We had a flipchart (de rigeur) bibles-a-plenty and the guy who was leading had, yes, a whopping big stick (perhaps at the time the big stick was the penny round collar of evangelical circles). I believe they said that ’stomping’ was their preferred praying style, pacing up and down wielding the big stick, quoting scripture as you go.
Everyone else kind of sat around in a circle muttering their own individual tongue. I sat and prayed quietly, “Lord, will you make them shut the @*% up so I can hear myself pray!” I felt like a fish out of water (last of the watery references, I promise) One of them has now been inspired by some piece of scripture or other to trade in the whopping big stick for a whopping big sword which goes everywhere with her - even work. Fortunately it is a Christian set up so they humour this odd behaviour. I do really like them as people, though, we always have a good laugh. And as I always say, it’s another chapter for the book.

By: Carole on April 27, 2008
at 11:15 am

EVEN JELLICLE CATS

Even Jellicle cats are often found praying
When deep down inside they’d rather be playing
Even Jellicle cats know how to dance
And rock and roll, and take a chance
Even Jellicle cats are balanced and steady
(they know by faith they are saved already)
Even Jellicle cats sing one more chorus
And say, “Join in! - it’s best to be for us!”
Even Jellicle cats come one, come all
And come to the evangelical ball

(with apologies to T.S.Elliot)

I wrote this at spring harvest some years ago and submitted it for the daily newsheet - it didn’t get used so here, self-indulgently, it is!

By: Chris F on April 27, 2008
at 6:32 pm

Thanks chris, just read that to Iain- made us laugh a lot!

By: soniamain on April 27, 2008
at 6:37 pm

I love this Jellicle cats, Chris, - any more?

By: subo on April 27, 2008
at 9:36 pm

chris f… a work of genius! :-)

By: jonbirch on April 28, 2008
at 12:38 am

Can I just say how much I’m loving this thread!
Haven’t had the energy to mail in a while, but I’m enjoying being back!

I’m sure some of you have heard this church story….when I was training to be an RE teacher we went on a retreat to Birmingham(!) to visit loads of different churches/temples etc. On the sunday, late morning, after a long service at an Orthodox church, we went to a pentecostal church where we duly snuck in late and found a pew near the back. It wasn’t long before the prayers started and people were openly shouting out very loud to God. The woman behind us was clearly worried for the condition of our souls as she prayed along the lines of “save these children who are complete sinners and don’t know your abundant love Lord”. Not many converts from our group I have to say, and John (the preachers son and raving evangelical Christian) had a bizarre conversation with her afterwards. The Orthodox service went well up in people’s esteem too!

Mind you it probably didn’t help we were all hung over after a heavy night the night before (one of our number even had to have his stomach pumped……). Ah the joys of RE courses!

By: dadube on April 28, 2008
at 8:49 am

Well its a jolly good thing God gave us a sense of humour really isn’t it?!!!!! At least we can laugh about the weirdness of our brothers and sisters in christ - and at ourselves too. I am a little disturbed to find the big stick phenomenon is/was so widespread - I had convinced myself that it was a select group of the socially challenged I had encountered, but it sounds like it was rife!!! Picking up on what Sonia said earlier, I think it is very important to be aware of how we look to the unchurched - esp in the context of worship which is open to all to walk into. After all our task is to show Christ’s love to the world. How can we do that if we are so absorbed in our own bubble we haven’t even noticed that what we are doing is a bit strange?
Charlie you deserve a medal for doing the orthodox and the pentecostals in one day - about the only thing they have in common as far as I can see is that they like their services looooong! What a marathon!
On the subject of the orthodox, it is their Easter Monday today, so happy Pascha to you all…again! Christ is risen!

By: sanctuarybath on April 28, 2008
at 9:38 am

This thread has been very interesting and helpful to me. Clare - fascinating what you and others have said about this stick thing at spring Harvest. I’ve never heard of that and i totally agree with sonia and others that this is a terrible turnoff to all and sundry. It sows so much confusion.

Su is making a very perceptive point when she says that people ‘get lost in their own space’ and the entire thing becomes both otherworldly and very individualistic.

In my language a lot of Christianity can easily become gnostic (Paul attacks this in 1 Timothy 4:1-6) and consumerist at the same time. a very individualist form of Greek gnosis.

It’s also important to point out that so-called Christian justification for the Inquisition used arguments that were borrowed from Plato. and so we come back to the desperate need for wisdom and biblical discernment.

A good book which unmasks and explains the gnostic/ platonic stuff is Surprised by Hope by tom Wright. It’s a great read.

My approach with evangelical Christians is to force them to understand that this otherworldly individualist stuff is a betrayal of our Christian heritage. And i find the story of william Carey works very well here. He is often called the father of modern missions but his grasp and understanding of the Christian faith was a complete rejection of all these ugly perversions which this thread has opened up.

Rocky

By: Mark Roques on April 28, 2008
at 10:03 am

am so with you on this Clare, “I think it is very important to be aware of how we look to the unchurched - esp in the context of worship which is open to all to walk into.”

By: subo on April 28, 2008
at 12:36 pm

cheers Rocky, “And i find the story of William Carey works very well here. He is often called the father of modern missions but his grasp and understanding of the Christian faith was a complete rejection of all these ugly perversions which this thread has opened up.” - have you any more details on the sexy W Carey - oh, thats another thing about the extreem jellicals, they take good care not to look toooooooo sexy - how unhuman!

By: subo on April 28, 2008
at 12:42 pm

I totally echo what Su picked up on from Clare’s post.
I’m not saying we should censor worship (heaven forbid!) but I find it disconcerting that some of our actions may actively discourage others from looking further at what church or christianity actually are.

By: dadube on April 28, 2008
at 12:43 pm

Thanks for the kind comments re jellicle cats!

Our church was called “H………. Evangelical Church” but I managed to get my way and now it’s called “H……… Church” plain and simple. For those INside, the word evangelical is redundant as everyone knows what we believe and we don’t need labels to reassure ourselves; for those OUTside, the word evangelical has many negative connotations or is just meaningless.

Though I’ve now left, I remain very fond of the people who are the closest thing I’ve ever found to the oxymoron “tolerant evangelicals”!

By: Chris F on April 28, 2008
at 2:01 pm

Su

I have an article on my website about Carey that i hope you find helpful.

http://www.markroques.com/story3.htm

R

By: Mark Roques on April 28, 2008
at 3:23 pm

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