Posted by: subo | May 8, 2008

“Men Women & God”, Article by Jenny Baker in Christianity

http://www.christianitymagazine.co.uk/features/men%20women%20and%20god.aspx

“What is the difference between men and women? …….. While campaigns for equality in the 60s and 70s stressed the equivalence of men and women, in recent years there has been a swing back to exploring and trying to define the differences between the sexes. Much of that has been helpful, leading to better communication and increased understanding between men and women. But is it all good? Or is there a danger that rigid definitions of difference, particularly ones with a Christian veneer, can actually perpetuate stereotypes, stifle diversity and drive us further apart?”

I very much enjoyed Jenny’s article, but have to say am perplexed by the news in this magazine that some churches are going to quite some lengths to try to establish a more equal male/female ratio.  Another article talked about setting up a men’s camp in the wilds of Suffolk, whilst it sounded great fun, it’s also sounded painfully self conscious - do men really need this kind of ’special treatment’?

I feel blessed, having read this to find I belong to Christian groups where the male/female ratio isn’t very obvious, but I can’t help wondering if this debate isn’t a deflection from the real issue, that is, that church services are often excruciating, over long, irrelevant and weird? (- not that that says much about women, are we being too tolerant?)

anyway, Jenny’s article is worth a read, and it would be good to hear your views - should we make church more like a football event?

Responses

Very interesting conversation Su. I heard of a large church near us who recently decided their men needed to be encouraged to be ‘real men’ and they had organised adventure trips, going into the woods :) etc etc.. The women were also encouraged to be real women and they did seperate services for the men and women for a short while- sounded both amusing and sad!. Curious though that although the church is supposedly full of mostly women it is still run mostly by men!

what is the difference between a man and a real man, and a woman and a real woman?

I love the idea of meeting in the woods, and going for adventure rather than talk based weekends.

i liked the idea of going into the woods- but that was only for the men!

It MIGHT help to make church more like a football event - if we mean an event that we all care about, get excited about and appreciate the gifts of those playing, whether we win or lose. I went to a match yesterday with my son (who has totally given up on church age 17). I noticed that even for an away game, our crowd was made up of women as well, of all ages. So it’s not the macho football thing, I think…

… isn’t it about reality, whether we actually care or not? What we do is not irrelevant, (send the men off into the wild woods if that’s what they care about) but is not the heart of the matter.

Being real means coming to accept that I am a paradox of good stuff and stuff that I feel ashamed of, and knowing it will alwas be so - has to be that way. So many relationships are about trying to turn the woman into the sexy, domestic goddess, ideal mum, etc of my dreams - and of course women do the same to the man the’re with. If only we could be with one another in ways that allow the paradox to be what it is and give up the attempt to fix one another. Hopefully our love would elicit the best - but it would not demand or need this. I could then be allowed to be the real man I am - and you can be the real woman that you are.
If church was an event where like minded people could be together and cheer each other on beause that’s what we care about - both men and women would be there, because all of us are attracted by the real thing

cheers for the comments Chris, they’re really thoughtful (and thought provoking)

the space feels so different at a match, hot pasty and tea in hand, I feel safe, no one’s going to get at me and say “we’re now going to kneel to pray”.

but also thanks for your honesty about how both men and women try to ‘fix’ each other. I’m sick of being told ‘women are always trying to fix men, while men just accept women as they are.’

“and cheer each other on because that’s what we care about”, I just love it, thanks, here’s to cheering each other on.

I love your comments Chris, the messages that are portrayed about what it means to be a man or a woman can be so confusing- particularly for children/ young people. I love that desire for honesty about who we are and what we are like, but also that sense of supporting one another and accepting one another. That is my desire for church, and life- it’s an ongoing journey we are trying to figure out and make in sanctuary.

I love the idea of cheering each other on! Thanks Chris, what a great picture. I think so often gender targeted events or groups in a church context are clumsy and do more to perpetuate stereotypes than they do to promote a redeemed view of whole people, male and female. For a start, they always begin by separating the men and women - well how does that help us learn to work together, understand our differences and appreciate one another’s unique skills and talents? Rather than sending the men off into the woods and the women to do crafts why not take everyone away to do something new together?

chris… you’ve really nutshelled something difficult to nutshell! :-) i wish i’d said what you said… i will from now on! :-)

I’m not sure about blog etiquette - I only started for first time when a pal told me about Jon’s asbo site!

Anyway, I simply wanted to say thank-you to subo, sonia, clare and jon for responding, I feel surprised and encouraged!

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