My children went to ‘proper’ church yesterday with their friend. They were keen to go and we thought it might be a good idea for them to experience a more traditional church service and stuff. Over lunch we were discussing what they did and how it was. My youngest told me they were learning a memory verse, I was quite shocked this was method was still being used- i remember learning memory verses, and then never winning the prize for remembering because i could never remember it!. I guess that didn’t start the very well as I stupidly spoke out loud my surprise at using such an old fashioned style of teaching. The conversation went down hill from there, apparently they then then discussed the passage ( which was about Jesus calling disciples to be fishers of men). I asked my daughter and her friend if they knew what this meant, odd phrase “fishers of men”. The friend clearly explained it is about getting everyone to be a christian because if they are not they will not be with Jesus when we die. I began to say that I thought it was actually quite complicated and then used the word hell in my sentence ( can’t remember why!) to which I was promptly told by the friend “they were told about people like me! using words like that, that is a swear word and i won’t be with Jesus if I use those 
“. Umm now I don’t have a problem with being challenged by my children, but that was not a swear word- i can and do use many!!, and when I do they tell me off and that is right. BUT to be taught that swearing will stop me being with Jesus- sadly it reminded me of another reason why I don’t do main stream church anymore. I struggle with the black and white viewing, the judgemental attitude, not having the chance to question and disagree. It’s made me raise questions – yet again- about how we share our faith with our children, I want my children to grow up knowing and loving God, but I don’t want them judging other people because they have different views, experiences. Just wondered what other people thought, what your experiences are?, am I being super sensitive and unfair? or is it ok to be so black and white in the way we teach children?
Posted by: soniamain | May 18, 2009
Black and White faith
Posted in Uncategorized
great post Sonia, have not thought about the church stuff I got to go to as a kid for years.
yep, we did the memory verse stuff, and some wonderful stories
‘treasure seekers’ made a great contrast from school for me, as teachers back then thought nothing of screaming at children on a daily basis, my mode of attending sch became like a permanently frozen zombi. I still relate to ‘Kenny’ out of South Park.
so to go somewhere where adults smiled welcomingly, seemed to like me, never screamed or switched to control mode, was a huge relief. Hearing other people’s stories has left me very appreciative of this group of adults, who warmly related to us, and gave so much.
I went to a ‘proper’, conventional, CofE church recently, and was struck by how happy and relaxed the few small children sitting in front of me were. They had colouring books, and went off to a group during the service. As am used to children running wild in a larger ‘child centred’ church, where it’s not unusual to see parents anxiously following their junior aged children around as they climb pillars and engage in conflict games with each other, this made me reflect. – I wonder sometimes, if the balance has slipped from consulting with the children, about what they’d like in services, to adults being dictated to, by them, and children missing out on the opportunity to fit in with the wider community?
By: subo on May 18, 2009
at 5:59 pm
Interesting point Su, but my reflection on how the children got taught in church was that it was boring, unimaginative, uncreative. It was completly seperate and un linked to what was going on in the rest of the service. Lily felt that she was not able to ask questions or disagree with what was being said ( to be fair they were a new group to her so not surprising). I do think there is a challenge in ensuring that “family services” are not just dumbing down to the youngest child and leaving everyone else bored stiff. i do believe passionatly that surely it is possible to do church in a way which engages adults, where children are also engaged and behave in an appropriate way (e.g. not running around wildly! It is ok to say that some behaviours are not appropriate- well I think so anyway!)Yes that is a challenge but I crave to see both children and adults taught/ able to worship in creative inspiring, faith building ways, engaging in spiritual growth.
By: soniamain on May 18, 2009
at 6:46 pm
I wonder if kids need the black and white initially, then are allowed to make ‘greyer’ decisions later on. I’ve seen this with my own kids, who are 21,19,18 and 10. The older ones have drifted away from the traditional set-in-stone standards, but seem to have no less faith. I’ve tried to raise them that any faith that cannot withstand intense scrutiny really isn’t much at all. Younger kids do well with boundaries. Older ones require more flexibility. My 10 yr old likes the stories and the standards.
( I came by your blog randomly, but I like what you’re saying)
By: rootietoot on May 19, 2009
at 4:40 pm
Welcome and thanks for your comment rootietoot, I totally agree that children need boundaries. I work with children and train adults on how to work with them and yes promote boundaries big time!. However i also think there is a place for creativity and for the bible and christian faith to be opened up in a way which is interesting, creative, engaging!. Actually i think this is important for adults as well as children and for teaching in schools as well as in church!
By: soniamain on May 19, 2009
at 5:10 pm
hi rootietoot, great to find you on the blog
I love reading about your vision Sonia, and know you’ve achieved some of it already.
I think there’s room for a real mix in church, and would be reluctant to discourage some of the great things that are happening across churches, just because they’re not breaking new ground
For me, a good indication that things are going well, is a sense of relaxed happiness. and the thing that makes me most uncomfortable is the showman slot at the front, where the curate dangles a tiny tot on his knee infront of everyone. In my view children shouldn’t be expected to take part in stuff up front, untill they are old enough to decide to join in themselves. and I think it’s good to build a sense of respect towards young children, letting them come to you – or not.
By: subo on May 19, 2009
at 11:27 pm
lol – I can just imagine your face at the comment “I’ve been warned about people like you”!!!
I kind of think this links in with the to tell or not to tell street pastor thing – how can we get kids to learn about following jesus, without then having them say you’re not going to be with jesus if you do this or this or this….
yes I agree that children need boundaries (oh please, in the classroom they definitely do!) but the judgemental side of mainstream church is one I have always had a problem with (mind you, I say that, but its not just mainstream church where people are judgemental, I think that’s a problem with society as a whole…..)
I’ll be back when the popster isn’t demanding attention!
By: dadube on May 20, 2009
at 1:22 pm
Hi Sonia. An interesting experience. I come at it from a different perspective. I teach in a number of Catholic schools according to their RE syllabus. It’s deadly boring in terms of the content but there is scope for a bit of creativity in how it is delivered and it is about children exploring various aspects of life/faith. We have thankfully, for many years, plugged love and grace in opposition to hell and damnation. I probably would get told off sometimes, because I like the children to ask questions and sometimes I don’t give them an answer. Sometimes I say I don’t know. I think it is healthy for them to know that there are some problems with faith, but that it can be held in tension with the good news of the gospel. I think it is good for them to know that an adult can still question and is still journeying. Above all, it is good for them to know that they own their own faith and if we can explore together maybe we can arrive at a comfortable place which is more likely to stand the test of time than a totally forced faith.
By: Carole on May 21, 2009
at 10:01 pm
I’d have just loved to have been in your RE class Carole, and I have a huge depth of gratitude to the adults who let their human qualities show, a few in school, and the people who ran children’s church meetings. These people helped me build a window into the world, that looked good to engage with. They were the people who stepped out of line, some remembered my name, some shared something that they found interesting, some kept the sense of order week after week. I still find people who great me with a sense of having a little time to share, who show warmth towards others mentioned, tremendously inspiring. They are the people who’ve opened wells of living water for me.
By: subo on May 22, 2009
at 7:21 pm
Totally agree on some of your points Carole – its very good not to give answers in RE lessons
My lot are regularly hung up on my faith as I wear a cross, but they find it hard that I have a penchant for Buddhist prayer wheel earrings and a Hindu goddess bag – no end of questions…..!
By: dadube on May 24, 2009
at 7:56 am
Hahaha! Well, no one faith group has the monopoly on wisdom so no-one has the monopoly on symbolism, either, I suppose!
It always used to confuse me a bit when some Christian friends got really hung up on things like yoga. When I asked their problem, they quoted the more obvious fear of emptying the mind. When I suggested that you could meditate on Christian things, they then said that the shapes of the body had some wrong spiritual significance…as if stretches and bends were somehow demonic, in themselves. I don’t really understand that. Especially since one church where they wouldn’t host yoga groups now host a pilates class…I thought pilates was just the exercise bit of yoga?
By: Carole on May 24, 2009
at 11:51 am
those ‘worries’, are funny. we joined a KungFo class recently, and it’s proved a great fitness workout as the tutor leads the class through a host of stretching routines needed to gain the flexibility for KF.
our minister though, was seriously concerned ‘it’s spiritually dodgy, and we need to keep away from such things’
well, I doubt my bulging middle aged body, will get very far in the graceful art of KungFo, and yet I felt God’s smile as I tried desperately to do those high kicks, ‘I’ve led you here, as a way to cure those aching hips’. (I got tenderitis in the hips after working in a cafe where we needed to put out heavy tables every morning, frustratingly the cafe was a church project!)
By: subo on May 24, 2009
at 12:38 pm
kung-fu, hindu baskets, buddhist wheels!!!!!????
am i on the wrong blog!!!!!????
disgraceful!!!!!
thou shalt wear a cross as thou knowest thou ought!
of course our faith is black and white! the answers are all there in the bible!
carole… i’m shocked at you, entertaining the idea that other religions may have some wisdom in them. you are clearly a liberal backslider!
i’m afraid your comments have left me quite weak.
By: jonbirch on June 8, 2009
at 11:07 pm